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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, I am confused about the clutch since I have never seen a SxS setup & only have what was in my Honda Pilot as a Reference

Is there a difference between what the Honda Pilot was using and the WDC Mod ???

Is Back shifting the movement of the belt in the primary pulley or the secondary pulley????

In the Honda pilot you had the Driven clutch (Primary engine pulley) and the Drive Clutch on the Tranny (secondary pulley) & no Clutch

The belt and pulley mechanism serves as both the clutch and the gear system. In making the transition from a starting gear ratio to the final "top gear," It used two belt pulleys which have the ability to open and close axially (sideways) so that a specially designed belt can ride in various positions in each pulley and allowed the tranny to auto shift gears depending on power applied.

Example Of Clutch Sys

View attachment 1701


Figure 2 (Primary)
View attachment 1702


In Fig. 2, a section of the primary pulley is shown in both the low and high "gear" positions. The spring pressure holds the pulley halves apart when the engine rpm is low to facilitate de-clutching. As rpm increases, the centrifugal forces created by the clutch weights overcome the spring pressure and close the pulley sufficiently to engage the belt and start transmitting power.

The squeezing force created by the clutch weights continues to increase as the engine rpm increases. Assuming the motor is properly geared and has sufficient horsepower, the transition from low range to high range will continue until top speed is obtained.

Various springs with different rates and lengths determine the pretension and can be used to change the engagement rpm and "refine" the shifting characteristics. The higher the spring pretension, the higher the engagement speed.


The clutch weights are the speed-sensing component of the primary pulley. As the engine rpm increases, the clutch weights swing out against the rollers in the spider tower, generating a force that quickly overcomes the spring pretension. As the engine speed increases, the clutch weights and their geometric relationship with the spider tower provide sufficient squeezing force to allow even the extreme horsepower to be transmitted with very minimal slip. It is estimated that the squeezing forces on the belt could be in excess of 2000 lbs. depending on engine mods

The design of the clutch weight shape and its geometric relationship with the spider is extremely complex. The shape or profile of the flyweight roller contact surface can modify the belt engagement speed and determines the unique shift curve required for each combination of engine, and riding condition. The greater the weight of the flyweights, the higher the squeezing force and the higher the horsepower capability.


To over come Stock Limitations of the stock driven clutch which had no adjustable weights & low performance, The Mod of choice for the Honda Fl400 Pilot was the Comet 102c clutch as seen below


View attachment 1703 My FL400 HAD a 2 Stroke 400cc Port & polished Engine and would produce to much torque for a stock clutch



The driven Clutch (Below) would keep the belt At the top of the the pulley when at idle and as power was applied it would transition from low range to higher range by reducing the belt squeeze which allows it to open up and let the belt ride further down in the pulley & depending on power needs could ride any where within the pulley until eventually at full power be fully down to the spindle.


Driven Clutch
View attachment 1704


So in essence in the Honda Pilot

The two pulleys in the system must stay in "low gear" until the engine is producing maximum horsepower and the vehicle is well underway. Once the engine rpm is at peak horsepower, the primary pulley squeezing force begins to close the primary pulley and move the belt into a higher ratio. At the same time, the secondary pulley responds to the decreased power requirement (the power needed to accelerate the vehicle is less than the power required to get the unit into motion). The secondary pulley reduces the belt squeeze which allows it to open up and let the belt ride further down into the pulley.

In effect, the vehicle is transitioning from the low range to the high range . Assuming the it is properly geared and has sufficient horsepower, the transition from low range to high range will continue until high range is achieved and top speed is obtained.
 
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THIS SHOULD HELP
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That did help. It looks like the basic Primary & secondary clutches work the same As the Pilot. But as I stated in the Pilot setup there was no clutch at all

So what is the purpose of the clutch in the assembly???


BTW, here is the second half of that video showing the install

 

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As far as i can tell it is like a strike load damper. It slip when there is to much load on the crank. It for people who jumps a jump and don't let of the gas in the air. Another words its for dummy. Bad part is the clutch slip and put burn particle in your engine and if you add hp it gets worst.
 

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I have taken the stock apart on both a WCD from Airdam and the stock from AC. The assembly is basically this: crankshaft comes out of the crank case seal, it's splined, and then threaded; the wet clutch is goes on the splines, then gets a nut to hold it VERY tightly in place; now there is a housing with a gasket, that has a bearing and a seal and a spacer with an o-ring in it; through this bearing the primary dry clutch shaft is pressed, and on the back a flange is pinned to the wet clutch drum. When the crank shaft spins up the wet clutch, it's shoes are forced out into this drum and the friction spins the drum-shaft-primary dry clutch assembly.

Ok, fine, here is the issue, this primary is a centrifugal roller clutch, meaning it has no spring tension to try and force the belt back down the sheaves, or back shift as you will it hear it bitched about. This is accomplished by a very heavy spring in the secondary (which is more like any other secondary on a CV clutch setup) pulling the belt back down primary as the secondary is forced closed by spring tension when not under centrifugal force from RPM. Also, the primary roller clutch design (best I can tell, and I'm no genius on the matter) has basically 2 gears, low at the bottom of the sheaves, then at a certain RPM, it cams over the rollers and "shifts" into it's higher gear. This sucks as a design in my opinion compared to most other clutches like the Pilot, RZR, etc. With a sprung primary and secondary they both shift up and down creating infinitely more gear rear ratios based on spring pressues, RPM, weights, etc, and infinitely more adjustability by changing where they shift in conjunction with each other. This allows so many possibilities to match your riding style.

The Wet Clutch Delete setup: Airdam takes the housing, and the wet clutch and uses the wet clutch inner hub only by removing the pins, removing the shoes, and then machining off the excess material. He then welds this hub to a shaft that gets pressed through the bearing in the housing. He takes out the spacer and machines off un-needed housing material on the outside. The new CVtech primary (from god knows what application) is then pressed on the new tapered shaft with a left hand thread bolt. It is a standard (what I consider standard anyway) sprung primary clutch with a bearing at the bottom of the sheaves (1 way???? i don't think mine is, but I haven't verified yet). Now the inner splined hub housing assembly is pushed over the crankshaft and screwed on. No more nut pressure.

Here are some pics of the stock and WCD setup:

Auto part Machine Auto part Gear Rotor Transmission part Wheel Auto part Rotor Clutch Wheel Locking hubs Auto part Wheel Vehicle brake Rotor Brake Auto part Bearing Wheel Rotor Hardware accessory
 

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red see the bearing inside housing see if ya can turn in opposite direction if ya can't it is a ONE WAY BEARING THATS WHAT ONE IS make sense thats how you can tell
 

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Thats great imformation but you guy didn't read his question. He is wanting to no why there is a wet clutch and how it works. The wet clutch in the engine compartment
 

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The wet clutch allows the belt and clutches to stay stationary when idling the engine. This stops premature belt ware/failure. Clutch engagement is also easier, if you will, with the wet clutch. It is located in the engine and is covered in engine oil, which is why, if you have a wet clutch, you should be using wet clutch compatible oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
here you go
OK, this is the same type of setup as on my Honda Fl400 Pilot. & it worked great and had no wet or dry clutch plates to worry about,

Which leads to my next question;

Providing you could get the clutches to fit in the current clutch housing and get the right shaft fit, Why can't the Primary & secondary clutches just be changed over to use this same system. with or without the clutch delete????

The secondary seems like it would be about the same size as on the WC, but I am not sure abut the primary. This seems like the most logical system to me
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The wet clutch allows the belt and clutches to stay stationary when idling the engine. This stops premature belt ware/failure. Clutch engagement is also easier, if you will, with the wet clutch. It is located in the engine and is covered in engine oil, which is why, if you have a wet clutch, you should be using wet clutch compatible oil.
You are correct about the oil issue, I put in the wrong oil in my KTM ounce and had nothing but slipping issues until I got that oil flushed out. The KTM shares the same oil with the trans & engine.


I just cant understand why use a wet clutch on such a heavy & powerful engine in the first place when clearly there are better systems out there like above
 

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OK, this is the same type of setup as on my Honda Fl400 Pilot. & it worked great and had no wet or dry clutch plates to worry about,

Which leads to my next question;

Providing you could get the clutches to fit in the current clutch housing and get the right shaft fit, Why can't the Primary & secondary clutches just be changed over to use this same system. with or without the clutch delete????

The secondary seems like it would be about the same size as on the WC, but I am not sure abut the primary. This seems like the most logical system to me
I'm not sure if you read how it works, or didn't understand it how I explained it, but basically you could use a different primary with out without delete, but stock would require a primary that fits that splined shaft, or you would have to replace the shaft by pinning a new one to the drum. None of this exists currently. Rumor has it that it will by next fall.

The setup you see above by Team would not fit under your stock cover. In due time, Someone will probably release something that might even include a new cover, as there is plenty of room to change the cover.

But I'm guessing you didn't read it, and won't read this either, because you posted the same thing with questions elsewhere after this thread grew....
 

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Thats great imformation but you guy didn't read his question. He is wanting to no why there is a wet clutch and how it works. The wet clutch in the engine compartment
he wants to know what a wet clutch delete is?first four words,then he asks help understand the wildcat clutch didn't you read it.:gruebel:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I'm not sure if you read how it works, or didn't understand it how I explained it, but basically you could use a different primary with out without delete, but stock would require a primary that fits that splined shaft, or you would have to replace the shaft by pinning a new one to the drum. None of this exists currently. Rumor has it that it will by next fall.

The setup you see above by Team would not fit under your stock cover. In due time, Someone will probably release something that might even include a new cover, as there is plenty of room to change the cover.

But I'm guessing you didn't read it, and won't read this either, because you posted the same thing with questions elsewhere after this thread grew....


I guess I can say you are guilty of the same thing of not reading my original post, because it clearly shows that I fully understand how a "GOOD CLUTCH SYSTEM SHOULD WORK," ONE THAT DOESN'T NEED A WET CLUTCH. And also that my original question was why the wet clutch was needed & what the delete did for the system

I am so sorry that you believe that I did not read the posts so far, but I did. I fully understand how the Comet type driven clutch works with the driven clutch as shown in the vid, which was the same as my Honda Pilot used. I also understand that the lack of springs in the driven (Primary) clutch will not allow the belt to back shift in the pulley. And I also said that I realize that the clutch must be able to be mounted on the spindle. I understand all of that

What I don't see is if you delete the clutch and do not provide another means of allowing it to relieve torque pressure on the engine & other component parts, such as downshifting would provide, then you may end up with a broken shaft, blown engine or tranny.

On the Honda Pilot, the cover that was over the clutch was to protect fingers only & keep the belt from flying everywhere if it broke. Most did not even bother putting the cover back on because it provided no dust protection and was just a extra part to take off to replace the belt. As for dust, we just washed off the dust after every ride & every few rides sprayed the clutch with a dry lube

Here is the exact Primary Comet 102C driven clutch that was on the Honda The spring & weights are under the silver cover

View attachment 1720


Who knows, maybe there is a driven clutch that already exist for another Application that could fit with little or no modification. The clutch above was also used in a lot of Sled Application as well as the Pilot. but I guess getting people to think about other possibility is a wasted effort
 

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The vid of the CVT is very similar to the Kawie set up-----But the new 2012 Kawie4, (4 seater), has new engine and weighs more and has gone over to the wet clutch application also??????????

Happy
 

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Your Question:[h=2]"What is the WCD clutch Help me to understand The Wildcat Clutch"[/h]
Guess I missed something when I described what the wet clutch did here in the first paragraph, and how it was removed in the second.....

And then followed with pictures of the stock drum and wet clutch, then the housing with the WCD assembly in it, but I'm some stupid ******* in Oklahoma so I guess I don't communicate well....

.....through this bearing the primary dry clutch shaft is pressed, and on the back a flange is pinned to the wet clutch drum. When the crank shaft spins up the wet clutch, it's shoes are forced out into this drum and the friction spins the drum-shaft-primary dry clutch assembly.

The Wet Clutch Delete setup: Airdam takes the housing, and the wet clutch and uses the wet clutch inner hub only by removing the pins, removing the shoes, and then machining off the excess material. He then welds this hub to a shaft that gets pressed through the bearing in the housing. He takes out the spacer and machines off un-needed housing material on the outside. The new CVtech primary (from god knows what application) is then pressed on the new tapered shaft with a left hand thread bolt. It is a standard (what I consider standard anyway) sprung primary clutch with a bearing at the bottom of the sheaves (1 way???? i don't think mine is, but I haven't verified yet). Now the inner splined hub housing assembly is pushed over the crankshaft and screwed on. No more nut pressure.

Here are some pics of the stock and WCD setup:

View attachment 1707 View attachment 1708 View attachment 1709 View attachment 1710 View attachment 1711
 

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Well....the bottom line here is that all kind of example's and explanations have been given to help answer the original question, which is one of the reasons that we are all here. The only stupid question is a question not asked.....how ever, people need to READ the explanations/answers before jumping on the SLAM wagon. Take the time to read....if you are not willing, then maybe you shouldn't ask.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Your Question:[h=2]"What is the WCD clutch Help me to understand The Wildcat Clutch"[/h]
Guess I missed something when I described what the wet clutch did here in the first paragraph, and how it was removed in the second.....

And then followed with pictures of the stock drum and wet clutch, then the housing with the WCD assembly in it, but I'm some stupid ******* in Oklahoma so I guess I don't communicate well....
Originally Posted by Redflametech

The new CVtech primary (from god knows what application) is then pressed on the new tapered shaft with a left hand thread bolt. It is a standard (what I consider standard anyway) sprung primary clutch with a bearing at the bottom of the sheaves (1 way???? i don't think mine is, but I haven't verified yet). Now the inner splined hub housing assembly is pushed over the crankshaft and screwed on. No more nut pressure

My Bad, Sorry, please accept my apology for that & my response.

But still don't understand one thing. Since the real problem seems to be the back shifting issue, which in this case is being caused by the lack of a sprung primary,
why can't you just change out he primary to that sprung primary clutch and not even bother with the clutch delete???


To me it seems that if you take care of the back shift issue, then the load & slipping on the wet clutch will not be such an issue. Also you would not run into the potential issue that Jackrabbit ran into with the broken crank.

Am I still missing something??? Is my thinking wrong???
 
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