What's your clutch setup?

59918 Views 227 Replies 28 Participants Last post by jcooksey, 6 mo ago

CRAWLR

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2020

What we are all looking for is earlier engagement. I don't understand why all the clutch tuners can't figure that out. Textron/Speed set up the XX for desert racing. Everything else is secondary to them. The Speed kit makes it even worse for what most of us want to do. The stock setup and most of the kits are only good for a holeshot and wide open throttle.

I've put a lot of work into my clutch and it is getting close to what I want. Probably what most of you want. Early engagement, good low end pull, good backshift, the right RPM all the way to the top. It's not that hard. But it is expensive to try different things until you get it right.

Right now I have the heaviest Secondary spring Venom sells, the lightest Primary spring Speedwerx sells, and BD-Extreme 55-71g adjustable weights with the heal full of magnets, with the stock helix.

With this set up, I've dropped my engagement down to around 2500 and I can rock crawl at 3000 without cooking the belt.
2-3mph climbing and 3-4mph going down, as long as you can keep it engaged. I miss the one-way bearing in the RZR.
The 'on the throttle, off the throttle' twisty mountain and desert trails are awesome with the backshift and the low-end pull.
The midrange could have more RPM. I want to try some lighter adjustable weights so I can add more heal weight and keep the total down.
The engine braking is a little too agressive. I like it but I think a lot of people would want a different helix.
The top end is the same. The clutch shifts out a little sooner and then the RPM builds with the speed until it gets to the max

I'm probably not going to win a drag race with this setup, but I can do the things I want to do and that is more important

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CRAWLR

Discussion Starter · #201 · May 24, 2021

Here's my final setup with Speed ECU and 32" Motohammers.
Mostly fast desert, with some trail riding and rock crawling mixed in.

All of my riding is above 3000ft and this is a good balanced setup with about 2400rpm engagement and 9200rpm WOT, at least in my car.

In the dunes at Pismo it could have used a little more weight since it is sea level, but it still got the power to the ground pretty good.

Remember, everything affects everything. So anything different on your car will need something different in the clutch.
Good luck

Arctic Cat (0646-467) 35-195 primary spring
Venom Green/Black (210493-011) 200-280 secondary
BD-Xtreme (SSI) 55-17 (13-B5571) weights with 3-0-0-0
BD-Xtreme 36-45 EBS helix
Larue primary cover
Speedwerx PTO
.030 shim in the primary

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CRAWLR

Discussion Starter · #202 · May 24, 2021

PaulB said:
Wow mine is not like that. It has the ALBA kit which comes with the purple spring and it also has a LaRue cover. Even by hand on a bench I cant compress it near far enough to start any bolt.

Interesting. Alba must be using a really heavy spring with much heavier weights. Sounds a lot like the Speed kit. Personally I didn't like the heavier combination I tried. It was a little too jumpy for me at anything but wide open. Good luck

mbrandt1402

· #203 · May 24, 2021

The OD of my clutch puller grows from the threaded portion to the hex head. I have a flange that slides over the threads and stops at that taper, then a spacer that goes between the flange and the clutch cover. On my X, I could use that setup to compress the clutch and swing the arms out to change the magnets with the clutch on the machine. I haven't done that on the XX yet, but the puller, flange and spacer make quick and easy work of the clutch cover with the clutch off the car.

I suspect you could use a hardened fender washer for the flange.

mbrandt1402

· #204 · May 24, 2021

Crawlr, thanks for posting your summary. I was going to go back over the thread and try to glean that info tomorrow so I could order parts for our Black Hills trip. I'm still on stock 30" tires, but am thinking 32s in a couple of months when these are done.

Boondogger

· #205 · May 24, 2021

CRAWLR said:
Here's my final setup with Speed ECU and 32" Motohammers.
Mostly fast desert, with some trail riding and rock crawling mixed in.

All of my riding is above 3000ft and this is a good balanced setup with about 2400rpm engagement and 9200rpm WOT, at least in my car.

In the dunes at Pismo it could have used a little more weight since it is sea level, but it still got the power to the ground pretty good.

Remember, everything affects everything. So anything different on your car will need something different in the clutch.
Good luck

Arctic Cat (0646-467) 35-195 primary spring
Venom Green/Black (210493-011) 200-280 secondary
BD-Xtreme (SSI) 55-17 (13-B5571) weights with 3-0-0-0
BD-Xtreme 36-45 EBS helix
Larue primary cover
Speedwerx PTO
.030 shim in the primary

Thanks for posting your info, that's worth a lot of money in R&D. I think I will just keep mine stock except for clutching, dust control and making it quieter. We ride Northern Wisconsin and always under 3000'. I live by the speedwerx guys and the BD-X guys too. They usually clutch everything for straight out mash the throttle and go. I'm like you and want something more specific. We have lots of forest road and pavement we run. There nothing real extreme here, some mud places that I avoid and lots of trail system that are narrow and two way traffic that you can't really go wild without fear of someone coming around the next corner. Again thanks for you hard work and for sharing!

Boondogger

· #206 · May 29, 2021

We were out for a ride today on our 2021 new machine and decided to watch rpm's and was surprised when I was spinning 9700 rpm's. That's a little high right, should be 9350. But this one is up. Wow maybe I got a strong one. Probably could put 32's on and be good???....

dbrink

· #207 · May 29, 2021

Boondogger said:
We were out for a ride today on our 2021 new machine and decided to watch rpm's and was surprised when I was spinning 9700 rpm's. That's a little high right, should be 9350. But this one is up. Wow maybe I got a strong one. Probably could put 32's on and be good???....

what are you running as a clutch kit at what altitude?

mbrandt1402

· #208 · May 30, 2021

Those lying sacks of do-do that wrote the USPS tracking software kept telling me my helix and weight kit would not be delivered until next Tuesday. It showed up today, which I knew was more than possible. I've installed the parts in my spare clutches and will mount the clutches later tonight. I'm stoked to try Crawlr's setup!

I sorted through my sheets of aluminum and found some .032". Turns out that with a lathe, a lot of patience and a good arbor, you can make a primary shim! Here are the leftovers:

Road surface Grey House numbering Asphalt Gas

The process is tedious and there is a fair amount of hand deburring necessary, so I'm not ready to go into production on shims. That said, if someone really, really needs a custom shim .030" or thicker and can supply the material, I could make a shim.

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Boondogger

· #209 · May 30, 2021

dbrink said:
what are you running as a clutch kit at what altitude?

I'm under 3000' and all stock machine. Brand new 2021... 236 miles

mbrandt1402

· #210 · Jun 2, 2021

I've installed Crawlr's setup, which was developed for his 32" tires. I'm on well-worn OEM 30" Behemoths. 3,0,0,0 revved too high, 3,3,0,0 was too low, but 2,2,0,0 put the revs around 9100 during my very brief test drive. I've lost some top speed - I'm on the Alba rev limiter (9700ish) in the high 70's. Prior to the Alba flash and SBD header, you could really feel the throttle close down as soon as I hit the speed limiter at 75, and after the header and flash, I could top 80 fairly easily.

I'm just short of having two complete sets of clutches - I only have one secondary outer sheave. I installed the new parts on the spare clutches, so my back to back testing isn't quite Honeycrisp to Honeycrisp, though I think it would qualify as apples to apples. If it was just a little bit easier, and if I wasn't so tired of working on the XX, I would throw the old clutches back on and try to capture some real performance data. The revs are where they should be, but the machine feels a little soft. And then there is the missing top speed.

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mbrandt1402

· #211 · Jun 5, 2021 (Edited)

I have a pic that I'll add later, but my observation on the Pro-mag clutch arms is that the first weight position is done before the primary is fully shifted out. With the clutch at full shift, that hole is beyond the pivot point. It is probably acting against additional closure, though quite minimally. The second position is probably working toward a full shift, but the affect is tapering off significantly. I'm trying 2-0-0-1, but it is a little too late tonight to do a WOT run - too many white tail deer in our neighborhood.

Does anyone know of a spreadsheet that calculates force generated by weights at each position? I'm SWAGing at this.

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mbrandt1402

· #212 · Jun 6, 2021

2,0,0,1 didn't get my top end back. After an initial jump to almost 9500, shift revs settle in around 9300 to 9400, which is about 300 rpm higher than 2,2,0,0. I'm leaving it like this for now. I like how the clutches perform, other than loosing about 5 mph top speed.

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apseagle

· #213 · Oct 17, 2021

Hello, Hope all is well with all of you. Need some input. Car, pictured below is an ex race car and on the heavy side. Speed 77, 32" tensors, Kings, all the stuff necessary for desert racing. Engine has full Speedwerx exhaust and intake, Alba tune, and is a fresh(ish) motor. Speedwerx clutching is installed with the following setup: Primary: Speedwerx 80-190 spring, G6-xx ramps empty, and the 200/280 secondary spring. Primary clutch is new and has the Speedwerx helix installed in the secondary.

I had no complaints over the last 500 miles until I hit a long straight section today and decided to cob it and see what it would do. RPM's hit max rev limit if 9700 rpms, but the speed would not climb past 70. I detected no belt slip and the belt temps did not spike past 177 degrees (Razorback sensor), so I do not think the belt was slipping. Wonder why I could not get past 70mph. I will pull the clutch apart and inspect it over the next few days to make sure things look right.

Did a bunch of low and mid speed stuff today with lots of steep fire roads and rocks/ruts. Clutch engagement and power was fantastic down lol/mid speeds with the RPMs rarely going past 8500 rpms, so I think it is perfect there. Engagement from a standstill is at 2500(ish) and very smooth, not jerky at all.

One point of mention; When I installed all the Speedwerx clutching in the still new primary, I noticed that the (and I am going to get the names wrong) inner star casting that has the hard buttons on it that slide up and down in the fingers when the ramps push on it, well, it did not slide nice and free. It is a brand new clutch from AC. Being a clutch newb on these I am unsure how tight they are supposed to be new. I would think they need to slide freely with no side to side play, but maybe not. Or maybe I need to get more miles on it. I am at about 500 now.

Belt probably has 700 miles on it and I do not detect any slipping or never saw it go past 210 degrees on the Razorback, so I think it is fine, but I will get a new on on order just to be sure.

Looking forward to your ideas. I am still a CVT noobie.

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dbrink

· #214 · Oct 17, 2021

What altitude are you riding at? My initial guess is there isn’t enough weight to close the sheaves. Mark the sheaves on primary and secondary and see how open (secondary) and closed (primary) it goes.

dbrink

· #215 · Oct 17, 2021

apseagle said:
Hello, Hope all is well with all of you. Need some input. Car, pictured below is an ex race car and on the heavy side. Speed 77, 32" tensors, Kings, all the stuff necessary for desert racing. Engine has full Speedwerx exhaust and intake, Alba tune, and is a fresh(ish) motor. Speedwerx clutching is installed with the following setup: Primary: Speedwerx 80-190 spring, G6-xx ramps empty, and the 200/280 secondary spring. Primary clutch is new and has the Speedwerx helix installed in the secondary.

I had no complaints over the last 500 miles until I hit a long straight section today and decided to cob it and see what it would do. RPM's hit max rev limit if 9700 rpms, but the speed would not climb past 70. I detected no belt slip and the belt temps did not spike past 177 degrees (Razorback sensor), so I do not think the belt was slipping. Wonder why I could not get past 70mph. I will pull the clutch apart and inspect it over the next few days to make sure things look right.

Did a bunch of low and mid speed stuff today with lots of steep fire roads and rocks/ruts. Clutch engagement and power was fantastic down lol/mid speeds with the RPMs rarely going past 8500 rpms, so I think it is perfect there. Engagement from a standstill is at 2500(ish) and very smooth, not jerky at all.

One point of mention; When I installed all the Speedwerx clutching in the still new primary, I noticed that the (and I am going to get the names wrong) inner star casting that has the hard buttons on it that slide up and down in the fingers when the ramps push on it, well, it did not slide nice and free. It is a brand new clutch from AC. Being a clutch newb on these I am unsure how tight they are supposed to be new. I would think they need to slide freely with no side to side play, but maybe not. Or maybe I need to get more miles on it. I am at about 500 now.

Belt probably has 700 miles on it and I do not detect any slipping or never saw it go past 210 degrees on the Razorback, so I think it is fine, but I will get a new on on order just to be sure.

Looking forward to your ideas. I am still a CVT noobie.

Also, if you’re not getting your into 9k+ at wot off the line you need to adjust for that too as you’re not getting max power

apseagle

· #216 · Oct 17, 2021

The high speed run was at 2550 foot in elevation. Rode up over 7,000 later in the day. The wear pattern in the primary sheave shows that there is not much in the last 3/8" of the sheave surface towards the outer rim. But, in my defense, I have not driven it much over 50mph yet. And this was only one blast to top speed, so the wear may not be showing yet. I ordered a new belt just to make sure it is not the belt, and when I put it on I will mark the sheaves with a sharpie and see what wears off on the next ride.

dbrink

· #217 · Oct 17, 2021

apseagle said:
The high speed run was at 2550 foot in elevation. Rode up over 7,000 later in the day. The wear pattern in the primary sheave shows that there is not much in the last 3/8" of the sheave surface towards the outer rim. But, in my defense, I have not driven it much over 50mph yet. And this was only one blast to top speed, so the wear may not be showing yet. I ordered a new belt just to make sure it is not the belt, and when I put it on I will mark the sheaves with a sharpie and see what wears off on the next ride.

With that range in elevation it will never be perfect. In my own experience I kept chasing lower engagement and 9200 rpms at altitude but between the primary and secondary (200-280) the light weights couldn’t close the sheaves and I lost top end. I decided to optimize for lower elevations and deal with the lack of peak rpms when in the mountains…which are hard to use on tight trails anyway. Went back to a factory weight, speedwerx blue stripe, and a 160-240 (I think) secondary. Last ride was at 6500 ft and I hit 82 at 9k before it ran out of grunt. Closer but not perfect yet. Running a 35-45 no ebs helix.

DuneTrack-N

· #218 · Oct 28, 2021

Trying this setup this weekend 10/28/2021 in CALICO, Ca
In the driveway/alley it now takes off at 1500-1600rpm will find out top rpm/speed this weekend, hit 84-8600 in a 150ft stretch
50-250 primary arctic cat spring # 0646-439 black white stripe
STM arms 4-1-1 heel to toe
35-45 EBC helix from BD Extreme
200-280 secondary venom spring green PN#210493-011

I really dislike this clutch tuning, spares in the box now
stock helix, arms and springs primary 100-191 secondary 100-240
STM 38-45 helix no EBC, got use to it but wanted to see a helix with braking again
Venom purple primary spring 180-320
SSI secondary green spring 190-200

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DuneTrack-N

· #219 · Jan 27, 2022

Forgot to report my findings, now that it's been a few months and trips. I really like what I've got.
Engagement is right at idle 1600-1900rpm, so the belt does drag some probably need to work on that.
Full RPM is 9200 that I've been able to witness.

Crawling excellent
Open desert excellent
Dunes/Sand washes excellent

Alba kit was the start ended up with this setup.
50-250 primary arctic cat spring # 0646-439 black white stripe
STM arms 4-1-1 heel to toe
35-45 EBC helix from BD Extreme
200-280 secondary venom spring green PN#210493-011

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Ragdoll XX

· #220 · Apr 4, 2022

DuneTrack-N said:
Forgot to report my findings, now that it's been a few months and trips. I really like what I've got.
Engagement is right at idle 1600-1900rpm, so the belt does drag some probably need to work on that.
Full RPM is 9200 that I've been able to witness.

Crawling excellent
Open desert excellent
Dunes/Sand washes excellent

Alba kit was the start ended up with this setup.
50-250 primary arctic cat spring # 0646-439 black white stripe
STM arms 4-1-1 heel to toe
35-45 EBC helix from BD Extreme
200-280 secondary venom spring green PN#210493-011

What size? weight tires are you using and what exhaust set do you have?

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